Built By Bechtel: How to Build Advanced Nuclear with Ahmet Tokpinar

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Every plan to decarbonize the
grid, power data centers, or

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secure energy independence
quietly depends on one

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uncomfortable assumption that we
can actually build the

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infrastructure we're promising.
Nuclear power is often described

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as essential for climate, for
reliability, national security.

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But here's the real question.
What if we can't build on time

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or on budget?
Because when these nuclear

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projects slip up, costs rise,
public trust erodes, projects

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get cancelled, and the door
opens for dirtier, faster

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alternatives to take their
place.

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Today, we're stepping away from
theory and into the reality of

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building these projects to
understand what it really takes

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to build nuclear power plants
that actually get delivered.

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My guest today is on at
Tokpinar, Principal Vice

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President and General Manager of
Nuclear Power at Bechtel.

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People don't appreciate the
benefits of nuclear power.

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It hits so many objectives.
Climate change, no carbon base

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load.
It's running at a high capacity

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without interruption.
Very, very reliable social

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power.
And for any country, it provides

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energy security.
One of the most experienced

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engineering, procurement and
construction companies in the

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world, with a nuclear track
record going back to the very

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beginning of the industry.
Ahmet leads Bechtel's global

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nuclear portfolio, including
large reactors, advanced and

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small modular reactors, and
projects like Vogel Units 3 and

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4, Poland's first nuclear power
plant, and the Natrium

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demonstration project in Kemera,
Wyoming.

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What sets us apart from other
international state supported

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companies?
We bring know how when we go to

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Poland, we don't go to Poland
with thousands of Americans.

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We're going to have 15 hundreds,
maybe 250 will come from US that

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bring the know.
How today we're going to talk

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about what it takes to actually
build nuclear from the ground

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up.
So who is Bechtel?

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Just a construction company or
something more?

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We are actually an EPC company.
So it's, it's more than

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construction, it's the design,
engineering, procurement,

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construction and commissioning a
plant.

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We can offer turnkey solutions
to projects.

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We operate in different
businesses, including nuclear

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power is just one of the
businesses that we operate and

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that's what I'm going to focus
on.

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But just quickly, we are also in
the energy business building LNG

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export facilities,
infrastructure business,

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airports, roads, mining and
metals and advanced

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manufacturing that look at
semiconductor fabrication.

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In addition, we also have a
government business that we do

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the legacy cleanup of the
environmental sites within the

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US for Department of Energy and
Department of Defense.

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So in nuclear, this is really a
core business for the company

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that goes back several
generations.

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We started out in late 1940s
with the construction of the

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first nuclear test reactor and
the commercial reactor in the US

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Bechtel was building about 15
units in each decades at the

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same time in the US and abroad.
And there's also the first we

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built the first nuclear reactor
in India with GE 1962.

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Not too many people even in
Bechtel would know that.

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We built the 1st in Taiwan,
Korea.

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Companies like Bechtel,
Westinghouse, Combustion

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Engineering really stood up the
nuclear industry in Korea going

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all the way back to 70s,
eighties, 90s.

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And now as you can see, they're
self-sufficient and became a

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competitor to us, which is a
good thing for us.

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That's our model.
We go in and we develop and

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create an industry, bring our
know how for others to learn and

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prosper.
Then we did the first in Spain.

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So our footprints globally is
pretty broad.

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Obviously nuclear fell out of
favor.

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There were periods where we
thought it was coming back.

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It didn't.
We kept ourselves busy in

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nuclear in two ways.
There was always one or two big

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project in the US, It was mostly
around completing existing

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unfinished units, Bransbury,
Watts Bar.

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And we moved that talent that
was heavily experienced nuclear

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power projects to other nuclear
projects that the US government

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has been undertaking like the
West treatment plant in

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Washington state, the uranium
processing facility at the CNSY

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12 complex.
So we were able to maintain the

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pedigree and the number of
resources.

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And most recently, we took over
the Vogel construction project

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as the Force EPC contractor and
brought it to a finish.

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But if you're wondering what's
on that story, how did he get to

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Bechtel?
We'll answer that too.

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Did you ask me at the time,
would you be running a nuclear

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business in the USI would have
said, what are you talking

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about?
It's it's a bit accidental by

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entry into nuclear.
You know, I studied civil

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engineering at Bosphorus
University.

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Then I came to US to the my
master's and as I was finishing

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my master's, Bechtel was
recruiting at the school.

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I really didn't know anything
about Bechtel learning.

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I did my research, I did the
interview.

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Couple of weeks later they gave
me an offer and then that was my

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first nuclear project.
I stayed, I worked been with the

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company 34 years primarily in
the power business, about 1/3 in

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conventional power, oil and gas
pride plants, combined cycle

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plants and then the rest was in
nuclear, the last 15 years

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without a gap in all nuclear.
With 34 years of experience in

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the industry, I wanted to know
what did Ahmed think about the

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current nuclear boom that's
happening?

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I mean nuclear coming back in
early 2000s when the shale gas

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revolution really brought the
price of gas so low at the

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nuclear economically make no
sense.

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So you know US started building
gas plants.

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What changed is first, if you
dial back 3-4 years, is the

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climate concerns and the
penetration of renewables.

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The intermittent source of power
started to play a role in even

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in the, you know, the non
nuclear and started seeing the

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value in carbon free base load
reliable energy.

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This was resonating more in
Europe than in the US at the

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time, although in the US there
was always bipartisan supports.

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But the US is a market economy.
Market should find a solution

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from it.
The added factor to that with

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the geopolitical tensions was
the energy security aspects.

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You know, countries wanted to
have their own supply of

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abundant energy.
They didn't want to rely on gas.

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You know, when Russia invaded
Ukraine, you know, that made the

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point stronger.
And then more recently,

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especially in the US, the AI
demands for power really brought

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all the drivers together and
made a very strong case for

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nuclear.
I mean, when you look in the

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last two years, what we've seen
in AI, the growth, the data

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centers and also heavy focus on
battery plants, heavy

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manufacturing, semiconductor,
all of this put a significant

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pressure on US supply, which had
been pretty much static in the

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last 10-15 years.
Now the projections are, you

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know, the utilities, the
developers, they don't know how

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to keep up with the demand.
And then early last year,

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President Trump's executive
order to have a 10 gigawatts of

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nuclear power under construction
by 20-30 was the last, you know,

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piece that we needed.
Put significant pressure, make

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something happen.
There are good programs in the

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US.
But when I look back, you know,

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in my 34 years, because I came
at the tail end of the nuclear

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built in the US, so it was
coming down, I have never seen a

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moment where all the forces that
drives nuclear power is so

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strong, persistent.
And now it's up to the industry

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to make sure that we can
demonstrate we can build these

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responsibly on time and a new
budget because we can't lose

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this opportunity to to to
showcase that nuclear can be

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built on time and budget.
So before we can actually get to

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building nuclear power plants,
what does it take to actually

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start moving dirt?
What testing has to be done

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before a site can even be
selected?

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We also help customers with site
selection, which is, you know,

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the very first thing utilities
or developers would do, they

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have to identify sites using
your criteria that is well

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established by NRC i.e., A
proximity to population centers,

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other maybe hazardous plants,
environmental impact.

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So you do your site selection.
We could play a role in that.

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We've done it with Terra Power
when they were selecting a site

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in Wyoming.
And then the first thing you

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want to do is make sure that you
understand the geotechnical

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aspects of the ground for
seismic response, soil

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behaviour, water table, access
to water flat decides how you're

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going to level it, the access
roads.

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So all of that is, you know, the
first thing you need to do,

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because you need that data
through geological surveys and

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drilling, you take out samples
where you're going to have to

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reactor building.
Most importantly, you analyze

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all that data and analysis feeds
into your design feeds into your

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safety assessment reports for
your foundation design is going

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to be informed by the condition
underneath it.

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So that's that's about a year
and a half, two year period.

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You're also during that time
collecting data to make sure

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where the water table is through
wells, you have the met towers

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so that you have information on
the wind so that you can base

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your design on.
That gets you to a point where

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you're advancing your design and
now you're ready, getting ready

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to mobilize to the site, to the
drubbing leveling and and get

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ready for excavation that will
house the building foundations.

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So if there's one big take away
here, it's this.

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Nuclear power plants don't start
with concrete.

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They start with understanding
the ground, the data and the

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risks.
Long before construction crews

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arrive, teams are already making
decisions that will affect

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safety, cost, and schedule years
down the line.

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And once you realize how much
planning happens before anything

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is built, the next question
naturally follows.

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What actually makes nuclear
construction different from

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every other big infrastructure
project?

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Nuclear safety obvious is very,
very important.

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You know the safety of the
public that you want to site and

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build and ensure that where
you're building it can withstand

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seismic events, weather events,
so that there's more rigor, more

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data and analysis with a higher
quality required.

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You know, before you can start
construction and putting the

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foundations in the buildings.
You have different quality

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standards.
There's I show 9000 and others

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that companies comply with for
doing work right.

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Nuclear brings in an additional
layer or quality assurance

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requirements to ensure public
safety.

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This is very important, but you
do that for the nuclear safety

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related aspects of design and
construction.

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When you look at a whole plant,
not everything on that plant is

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nuclear safety related.
You have where you generate the

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power, the turbines and the
turbine generators balance shop

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plant you're cooling.
They're not nuclear safety

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related.
So they are subject to your

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conventional quality
requirements.

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But when it comes to the nuclear
reactor, the the articular

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systems, the building it's in,
it is a different set of

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standards.
And So what it means for a

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company like Becton, you need to
have a nuclear quality assurance

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program that is qualified,
certified under NRC, that looks

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at your organization of the
company undertaking the project,

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how decisions are made, how
people are trained and certified

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for the work they do,
documentation and records

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management, how we control our
suppliers, how we buy material,

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how we subcontract.
And it's audited on an ongoing

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basis to ensure that we are
adhering to our own processes

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and procedures along the way.
So when we look to work with

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other companies, suppliers and
the contractors, even if they

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have their own program, we have
to audit and qualify them under

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ours.
So this layer of quality

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assurance in the supply chain is
an added layer and it adds cost

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and it's an investment.
If you want to be a supplier to

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provide nuclear safety related
electrical cable, the cable may

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be the same cable, but the
documentation of where the raw

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material supply comes from, how
it's installed, how well it's

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inspected every step of the way
needs to be all documented.

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So the process is far more
rigorous to manufacture that

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piece of cable compared to a
conventional cable.

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So it's a higher standard of
quality checks, audits, the

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pedigree.
Maintaining the pedigree and the

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records requires discipline and
culture of compliance to ensure.

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Because at the end, you know, if
you have missed a step that is

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critical, it could result in
endangering public safety.

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That's why it's very important.
What you're hearing is that

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00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,800
nuclear construction isn't just
slower or more complex for the

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00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,440
sake of it.
It's governed by a completely

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00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,880
different set of safety
standards, quality and

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00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,440
accountability.
And that raises a really

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00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,840
practical question.
If the standards are that high,

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00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,360
who is actually allowed to do
the work?

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00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,600
But first, a message from our
sponsors.

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00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,680
If we're serious about building
the next generation of nuclear

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00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,120
power plants, we need more than
concrete and containment dones.

240
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,440
We need people.
Engineers, welders, licensing

241
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,400
professionals, project managers,
Inc specialists, operators, the

242
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,640
people behind the build.
That's where a nuclear talent

243
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,840
scout comes in.
We source directly for companies

244
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,120
to find the people who can
actually move projects forward,

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00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,440
the ones who understand safety,
culture, regulatory rigor, and

246
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,960
how to execute on time and on
budget.

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00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,320
If you're ready to step into the
next phase of nuclear, or you're

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00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,360
hiring for it, head over to
nucleartalentscap.com.

249
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:25,200
Because the future of nuclear
energy isn't just designed, it's

250
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,240
staffed.
Now back to the show.

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00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,800
Yeah.
So in the US there aren't that

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00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,440
many nuclear facilities that are
being built that you can count

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with one hand.
So the supply chain to some

254
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,880
extent atrophy.
You know, the companies that can

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produce nuclear safety related
steel, cable, pipe supports,

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00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,000
instrumentation, you name it,
all the commodities that you

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need in a nuclear installation.
What we've been doing, you know,

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we started this effort last year
really surveying qualifying

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suppliers for each of the
commodities that we're going to

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need, not just one 2-3 suppliers
for each.

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If they need help, if they want
to get into being a nuclear

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00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,000
supplier, that we're helping
them along the way.

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Here are the things that you
need to do, programs you need to

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develop, and that's an
investment.

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So they need to start early on
if they have a program.

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Maintaining the program is also
a rigorous effort because it's

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not like I got my certification,
I'm good.

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You need to demonstrate through
frequent audits that you're

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always in compliance to your
quality assurance program.

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So it's an effort.
It's a high bar, you know, and

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the suppliers, rightfully,
they're willing to invest.

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It's not a matter of capability.
It's a matter of investing to

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develop that capability.
But they want to see a pipeline

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00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,400
of projects.
You know, if you're a supplier

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and there's only one project.
You may think, well, there's

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00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,320
plenty of work, why am I going
to invest so much money just to

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00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,680
supply pipe for one project?
But that that is changing now.

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00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:34,200
There's so much discussion and
potential work in a pipeline

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00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,000
that the landscape is changing.
They're going to invest more and

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00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,440
more.
So I'm comfortable, while

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00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:46,440
there's a gap today, we're able
to identify and work with those

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00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,080
that need the support and
encourage them to start getting

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00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,440
back into nuclear work.
Who gets to build nuclear power

284
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,640
plants?
One of the most eye opening

285
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,120
parts of this process is
realizing that nuclear projects

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00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,600
don't just hire workers, they
qualify people, companies, and

287
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,800
entire supply chains to meet
nuclear standards.

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00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,040
But even with the right people
in place, there's another

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00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,520
massive constraint shaping these
projects, the equipment itself.

290
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:20,120
Some parts of a nuclear plant
take years to manufacture even

291
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:24,040
before they arrive on site.
And with all of the talk of

292
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,040
modularization, I wanted to ask
Ahmed what is modularization and

293
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,280
how can it help the construction
process?

294
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,680
So modularization in any
industry is a smart way of

295
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,840
moving.
You want to move that work off

296
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,000
sites and do it in a control
environment without worrying

297
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,400
about the weather effects and
then ship those modules maybe in

298
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,200
smaller pieces and then you
assemble them and put it in

299
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,200
place.
So I want to step back and

300
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,960
because, you know, I want to put
some perspective on the role of

301
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,520
EPC in the overall picture and
our engagements.

302
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,640
Depends on what the technology
provider does.

303
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:14,920
But in a typical world, the EPC
for a nuclear power plant is 60

304
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,720
to 70% of the work.
A reactor technology brings the

305
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:25,800
core technology and the EPC
designs the power plant around

306
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:30,800
the reactor where you get the
heat source.

307
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:38,560
But then everything else A EE PC
can design, procure and built.

308
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,480
It varies.
Like Westinghouse made the

309
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,200
decision, you know, go back a
decade to design what we call

310
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,880
the nuclear island, the
buildings and the structures

311
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,800
around the nuclear equipment and
the reactor themselves.

312
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,000
So when we work with them, then
we design the energy islands

313
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,160
were determined and the turbine
generator and the balance show

314
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:10,320
plant, the cooling resides, but
it's a large part of a project.

315
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,040
It's usually the most
underrated.

316
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,080
But then if you don't get it
right, that's where you have two

317
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,080
problems and delays and over us.
So depending on the design, you

318
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,880
have to GW scale, which in the
US today's the AP 1000 design

319
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,320
offered by Westinghouse.
It's heavily modularized.

320
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,760
You know, there were a lot of
challenges during the Vogel

321
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,800
project.
People heard about it.

322
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,080
But the good thing, all those
risks are retired now.

323
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,200
The supply chain learns, the
technology provider learns.

324
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,640
So the next ones are going to be
drastically different than the

325
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,480
first ones.
When you look at the new

326
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,640
designs, whether SMRS, advanced
reactors, there's a degree of

327
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,000
modularization taking place
because we're designing the

328
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,320
Natrium reactor for Terra power.
There's the GESMR, there's

329
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,880
Kairos, the different
technologies, but they're not

330
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,840
built yet.
They're still in the design

331
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,200
phase.
They're all promising to be

332
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:26,040
relatively simpler in design and
ease of construction as compared

333
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,960
to the GW scale, but they're
right now in the stage where

334
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,520
they're trying to get their
designs completed.

335
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,240
You know, we mobilize at the
site on Atrium, We're doing the

336
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,720
manpower structures and test
facilities, and then we're going

337
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,480
to roll in this spring actually
to start the energy island

338
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,840
construction.
So the modularization is a good

339
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,600
concept.
In some places it doesn't make

340
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,280
sense.
But in the US, in a lot of the

341
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,520
European jurisdictions,
modernization has significant

342
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,120
advantages, lowering the cost
and bringing more certainty

343
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,840
during construction on your
schedule.

344
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,440
A lot of what determines whether
a nuclear project stays on track

345
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,280
actually happens years before
construction peaks, through

346
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,760
early procurement decisions and
long lead manufacturing.

347
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,000
Nowhere are those lessons more
visible than in projects that

348
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,880
had to figure it out the hard
way.

349
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,640
That brings us to Vogel Units 3
and 4.

350
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:35,440
The main one, which sounds very
simple and easy, but it is very

351
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:42,040
difficult for Orders Utilities
developers to stick to, is

352
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:49,000
ensuring the design is complete
before you start construction.

353
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:56,680
When we took over in 2017, we
were under the impression that

354
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:02,280
the design was 95% complete.
It was 95% complete four years

355
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,880
later.
What it does is if you are

356
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,800
designing as you're building or
you're building as you're

357
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,640
designing, there are always
changes in design.

358
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,800
That creates a lot of rework.
What you do in the field, you

359
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,960
install a component, the
location may change, so you may

360
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:29,200
have to take it out, reinstall.
So that was the primary problem.

361
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,400
There were supply chain problems
because the supply chain, it was

362
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,800
the first time a new unit was
built in the US after 20-30

363
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,360
years.
There were issues with the

364
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,560
modules, there were issues with
some of the equipment.

365
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:51,920
So when I look back and there
was no integration of how the

366
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,760
work was completed between, you
know, the technology provider,

367
00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:03,840
EPC contractors, 0 integration.
It was very ad hoc tools, you

368
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,840
know, even when we took over,
you know, when you take over a

369
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,120
project in the middle of
construction, you can't bring

370
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:16,200
all your tools.
So we had to be very creative.

371
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,360
We did the best that we can,
turn it around and finish the

372
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:22,880
project.
Vocal showed the industry just

373
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,360
how unforgiving nuclear
construction can be, but it also

374
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:30,440
created hard won lessons about
sequencing, workforce planning

375
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,160
and execution that are shaping
projects today, not to mention

376
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,040
the importance of finalizing
your design.

377
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,200
Now imagine taking those lessons
and applying them in a country

378
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,960
that's never built a nuclear
power plant before.

379
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,720
That's exactly what's happening
in Poland.

380
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:54,240
Now, looking forwards, we are
working with Westinghouse in

381
00:27:54,240 --> 00:28:00,400
Poland and we don't even compare
to Vogel anymore because now we

382
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,280
are totally integrated with the
technology provider in a common

383
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,480
data environment.
All the data that we need to use

384
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,360
to design, to build, to buy
resides in a common data

385
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:23,200
environment where we as Bechtel
can interface with our tools,

386
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,200
whether it's engineering, design
tools, procurement or

387
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,280
construction tools.
Common data environment also is

388
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:37,080
a single source of truth, which
is the data in that database is

389
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,440
the only data there's no risk of
duplicating in a different

390
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,320
place.
Everyone uses the same set of

391
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:51,320
data, and it also helps us to
create this digital platform as

392
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,880
opposed to carrying binders of
paper.

393
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,920
Everything flows seamlessly.
The work flows in a digital

394
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,880
environment.
So our goal when we mobilize in

395
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:12,240
the field on Atrium or in Poland
or the next AP1000 in the US

396
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,280
will execute these projects with
tablets, no binders.

397
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,760
And there was so much time on
vocal spent on chasing paperwork

398
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,280
because nuclear quality
requirements.

399
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,480
There's a lot of handoffs.
There's a lot of hold points

400
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,560
with this points inspections.
So there are work flows.

401
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,360
You wait for a quality control
engineer to come and inspect

402
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,080
before you can close it.
All that now is going to be

403
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:50,800
through a digital platform.
So the QC engineers notified on

404
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:56,000
his tablet iPhone that he has an
inspection to do, and it's going

405
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,160
to make a paradigm shift.
It also gives the workers more

406
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:07,280
time with tools in hand to do
the actual work as opposed to

407
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:12,040
chasing closing paper packages.
Let me add one thing because I

408
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,680
think it's important.
So we use this digital delivery

409
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,920
on other backup projects.
But in nuclear, there's an added

410
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:27,960
layer of complexity on using
data because of the nuclear

411
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:36,040
quality requirements, you need
to ensure the integrity of your

412
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,160
data, the integrity of the
configuration.

413
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,720
So we had to qualify a digital
execution platform under our

414
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,120
nuclear quality assurance
program.

415
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:54,320
The data exchanges, we spent
about a year last year because

416
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,720
we have hundreds of tools that
connect to this database,

417
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,240
collect data, use it.
But before you have to make sure

418
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,960
all these tools are qualified
not just under our quality

419
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,760
nuclear quality assurance
program because that's what the

420
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,480
NRC requires.
So we're really ready to deploy

421
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,280
it when we're mobilized at a
site, we're doing it in the

422
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,280
office with engineering
interface, but construction is

423
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,440
where really make a difference
still.

424
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,120
You know, I mentioned, you know,
we did this in Korea, Taiwan,

425
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,800
Spain.
So as a company we have an

426
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:41,880
institutional knowledge
experience of building a nuclear

427
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,520
industry.
It doesn't happen overnight, it

428
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,920
doesn't happen in a year.
It takes time.

429
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,120
So in Poland there are two big
projects.

430
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:58,120
We're executing the first one,
three GW scale API 1000 units on

431
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,240
the Baltic Sea.
That program alone is huge.

432
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,080
And then there's the opportunity
to to build it at a second

433
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,560
sight.
Utilization of local content is

434
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,240
obviously in our best interest
too, because it's cheaper,

435
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,960
faster and more reliable, but
also international interest

436
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,360
because they want to get the
most out of these projects by

437
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,480
increasing the capability and
capacity of the supply chain.

438
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,720
So we are working very closely
with the Polish supply chain

439
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,120
which is very robust.
Yes, they haven't done anything

440
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,400
in nuclear, but they have very
good quality suppliers,

441
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,880
construction companies,
subcontractors.

442
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,680
So and then Westinghouse are
partner on this doing the same

443
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,120
for the supply that they bring
to the project, you know

444
00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,520
fabrication of modules, you work
closely with the supply chain,

445
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,080
you walk them through this.
The first the educational part

446
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,280
of OK, what does it take to be a
nuclear quality supplier?

447
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,920
What are the steps, how long
does it take, What is the

448
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360
investment?
So we're walking them through

449
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,320
the different parts and you
know, as they see the project in

450
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,360
Poland is real, they start
investing.

451
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,680
If you look at the local
contents, what we buy within the

452
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:37,640
country will increase over time
from unit to unit and from site

453
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,560
to site.
Our goal is that when we

454
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:47,000
mobilize for the second site,
the participation from the polar

455
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,920
supply chain is fully maximized.
They're not going to do

456
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,960
everything because it doesn't
make sense for example, that you

457
00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:03,000
have forging of a reactor
capability in the country, you

458
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,720
will see a much bigger
participation.

459
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:12,480
The added benefit to them as as
we or others build more nuclear

460
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,440
plants in Bulgaria, in Sweden,
in, you know, the neighboring

461
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,199
Central and Eastern European
countries or even in the UK,

462
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,760
that will provide an opportunity
for Poland to export their

463
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,920
supply chain, export their
subcontract services to other

464
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,760
countries because they would
have benefited going through

465
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,560
this with us.
This is really what sets us

466
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:48,040
apart from other international,
you know, state supported

467
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,120
companies.
We bring know how when we go to

468
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,239
Poland, we don't go to Poland
with thousands of Americans.

469
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,760
If we're going to have 1500
people that we hire in Poland,

470
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,400
maybe 250 will come from US that
bring the know how.

471
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,000
So we are not only developing
the supply chain, we are

472
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:17,200
investing, training, developing
local talents in the ways we do,

473
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:23,160
in the ways we built, in the
ways we design and buy nuclear

474
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,960
power plants.
So I think it's very important,

475
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,400
you know, when I look and you
know other companies, you know

476
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:39,320
from China, Russia or Korea,
they're more driven by exports

477
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,600
from their country of origin to
the host country.

478
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,120
They're more export driven.
You know when they go and build

479
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,800
a nuclear plants, the primary
goal is to boost exports from

480
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:57,760
their country, whereas we look
at how can we help just by

481
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,640
bringing down know how develop
an industry.

482
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:06,720
So in the long term, this is how
Korea benefited, how Taiwan

483
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,280
benefited, how Spain, because
they were able to develop their

484
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,000
industries.
Poland isn't just building a

485
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,120
nuclear power plant, it's
building the foundations of an

486
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,040
entire nuclear industry, from
workforce training to supplier

487
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,280
qualification to public trust.
When they're fabricating

488
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,400
something, what we do is send
our people to their shop to

489
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,480
ensure they are complying with
the process, with the

490
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,080
inspections and the witness
points.

491
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,920
So we are there helping them
with that aspect.

492
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,680
And the fact that it coming
within the country eliminates

493
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,120
the risk of logistics to an
extent.

494
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,560
You're not shipping it from
Korea or China.

495
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,240
There's more certainty around
the schedule that it's going to

496
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,280
be there in time.
You always want to work with

497
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,680
local workforce.
In any event, they're very

498
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,120
productive, especially in
Poland.

499
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,680
I think we're lucky because
very, very productive workforce

500
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,120
there.
The challenge for us is be in

501
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:16,280
the number of skilled craft
force these plants.

502
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,640
You know, when you talk about 3
gigawatts scale units require

503
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:26,560
let's say 10,000 skilled
workforce, that's just people

504
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,520
doing the work.
Nuclear projects are not the

505
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,600
only projects.
They're always projects, right?

506
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:38,080
Highways, commercial buildings,
refineries, export facilities.

507
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,720
And getting to that level,
having the right skill sets,

508
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,680
trained, qualified at the
numbers that we need is our

509
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,440
biggest challenge in any
country.

510
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,880
In the US, Poland, that's what
we worry about.

511
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,320
If you mitigate the design risk,
which I think we have with

512
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:04,520
AP1000 reactors, the bigger risk
for us now is going to be how do

513
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,760
we get this level of craft to do
the work.

514
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,400
You have to incentivize, you
have to have the proper

515
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,320
training, and then they have to
have a reason to work on your

516
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,360
project versus working in
Germany on a windmill.

517
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:22,880
But that's the planning that
we're starting.

518
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,000
We do these things way ahead of
time because you can't just, you

519
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,280
know, a month before you start
construction, like say, let's

520
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,080
get a couple of 100 people.
Where are they coming from?

521
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:40,120
So we do these labor surveys
that analyze, you know, we start

522
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,040
with where the plant is being
built and you keep enlarging the

523
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,880
circle 5000 meter diameter.
You start looking at the

524
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,400
neighboring countries and at the
ends, if you feel like you're

525
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:58,240
not going to be able to fulfill
100% and you need 20% contingent

526
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:02,360
labor from other countries, then
you start working with the

527
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,280
government for the permits, you
know, and then when you look at

528
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:12,880
sources of Labor from third
countries, so in the US, this is

529
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,120
a big challenge because when you
look at the US construction

530
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,040
workforce and look at all the
projects, there's a significant

531
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,680
shortage today, hundreds of
thousands shortage.

532
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:30,280
Every industry is struggling to
find qualified people.

533
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,640
US really hasn't built major
infrastructure for a very long

534
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:41,400
time.
Second is somehow construction

535
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,440
work was looked down like go to
college.

536
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,800
Why do you want to be a
construction worker?

537
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,720
If I tell you how much a welder
electrician makes, it's a much

538
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:58,280
better paying job than most
professions.

539
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,960
So we are working with, you
know, the states with the

540
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,400
federal governments.
How do we attract more people

541
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:12,800
into the construction workforce
so that, you know, trade

542
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,440
schools, vocational schools?
Community colleges were

543
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,280
developing programs to recruit,
train, you know, and then

544
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,000
advertise that these are well
paying jobs.

545
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,520
It resonates with the new
administration and they're doing

546
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,160
the same.
But you know, this is going to

547
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,960
take time because I encourage
them to go to vocational school,

548
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,040
you know, when they finish high
school, learn trade skills and

549
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,240
then bring it to the projects.
There's going to be plenty.

550
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:54,640
I mean, with all the investment
targeted in the US, if you look

551
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,880
the next 20 years, it's crazy.
It's very exciting for everyone

552
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,880
but the workforce.
You know, we're doing our part.

553
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,880
And, you know, others are
hopefully doing the same, not

554
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,720
just to train and develop, but
to encourage so that the pool is

555
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:14,000
bigger for which you're
recruiting.

556
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,680
What's striking here is that
even as reactor technologies

557
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,840
evolve, the fundamentals of
nuclear construction don't

558
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,560
change.
Safety, culture, quality

559
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,000
assurance, and discipline
execution still matters most.

560
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,520
Which brings us to the question
everyone asks, and very few

561
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,440
people are explaining clearly.
What does it actually take to

562
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,680
build nuclear safely, on time
and on budget?

563
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,920
So I'm going to draw a parallel
to the LNG industry.

564
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,640
You know LNG, these are the
liquefied gas export facilities.

565
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:56,920
Right now we're building, we're
at 5 different sites and the

566
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,440
total value of these facilities
are over 100 billion.

567
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:08,320
We have 18,000 US craft in the
Gulf, metal employees 18,000,

568
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,680
very successful.
These are big jobs, complex.

569
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:21,120
We learned to do these jobs very
effectively and they're all

570
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,440
under budgets finish ahead of
schedule.

571
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:31,200
We turned the LNG industry down
back 20-30 years and brought it

572
00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:37,280
to a level today where we're
able to take a turnkey risk

573
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,800
delivered to our customers, a
facility that is operating ahead

574
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,440
of time.
Time to market in LNG is very,

575
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:51,320
very critical.
It's a huge success story and

576
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:57,320
we'll look at from the first LNG
train to the 9th, we brought

577
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,200
down the cost and schedule over
30%.

578
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,200
So there is precedent.
We can do it.

579
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,400
We know we can.
OK.

580
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,920
Nuclear brings added complexity
because of the quality nuclear

581
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,840
safety related requirements, but
they're manageable if you plan

582
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,760
it right.
The key in nuclear is the

583
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:30,040
discipline that you will finish
design before you jump in, so

584
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,640
you don't have to do any rework.
You stay close to your supply

585
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,160
chain, making sure the equipment
and material you're receiving

586
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,480
are meeting the quality
standards.

587
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:48,320
You get ahead of the craft make
do your surveys, plan rigorously

588
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,560
to ensure you'll have the right
number.

589
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:58,040
Not only recruited, but also
trained and qualified to do the

590
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:03,200
work where if you do all these
things with the proper

591
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,800
integration, the digital
delivery platform that I talked

592
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,960
about working closely with your
technology provider, it's not

593
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,440
rocket science.
We can do it.

594
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,240
We're very, very confident we
can do it.

595
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,760
But then the first one we do is
still not going to be the ideal.

596
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,840
It's the end of a kind.
So what is the end of a kind?

597
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,240
It is it the four, six tense
unit?

598
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,160
It will change.
It will depend on the

599
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,680
technology.
When you have a pipeline of

600
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,960
these projects, you know as
you're finishing the first

601
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,600
units, you start moving the
people to the second unit.

602
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,880
At each unit you're developing
more talent and then transfer of

603
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,760
knowledge is best done through
the people.

604
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,480
Each project you want to develop
talent so that you can deploy to

605
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,720
more projects.
That's how we're planning it.

606
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:06,920
We're in discussions with the US
governments this right now a big

607
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,240
effort to build.
You may hear buzzwords like 10

608
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:15,240
pack SMRS, 10 pack GW scales.
Hopefully something will break

609
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,200
mid year or later this year.
We're excited.

610
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,400
We want to grow the industry for
everyone.

611
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,760
And then once the industry grows
and we can demonstrate through

612
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,960
replication that you can bring
the cost down, finish ahead of

613
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,320
time, then there's going to be
more and more builds.

614
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:42,680
But one other aspect very, very
important, keeping the designs

615
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:48,240
standard and fight the
temptation trying to improve the

616
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:52,720
design.
If it works, keep it, don't

617
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:57,680
touch it because any changes you
make brings complexity and risk

618
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:03,920
of construction issues.
And the good thing is, the US

619
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,240
nuclear technology companies
learned this lesson from the

620
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:12,000
past, and they're disciplined.
With over 3 decades of

621
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,920
experience in the industry, I
wanted to know if Ahmed believes

622
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,040
the nuclear industry can meet
this moment.

623
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,280
Are we really able to convince
the public that nuclear is the

624
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,760
way forward?
Yes, I do.

625
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,360
Actually, you know, people don't
appreciate the benefits of

626
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:36,120
nuclear power, but when you
think about it, it hits so many

627
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,680
objectives.
Climate change, no carbon base

628
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,120
loads.
It's running at a high capacity

629
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:50,080
without interruption, Very, very
reliable social power.

630
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,560
And for any country, it provides
energy security.

631
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,240
And in this geopolitical
environment, you cannot take

632
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:03,880
that for granted.
It is an exciting fields

633
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:09,280
newcomers will benefits
participating in reviving this

634
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,360
industry and then you look back
and say I played a role in

635
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:19,000
reviving this industry that will
serve all of us well.

636
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:24,000
Bechtel is making moves around
the world, but where exactly are

637
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,160
these nuclear projects taking
place?

638
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:32,880
You know, we have Poland, we
have Natrium in Wyoming, we are

639
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,720
working with the TVA on the
Clinch River.

640
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:40,480
This is the GESMR.
They're very limited projects in

641
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,480
the industry today that is
making headline.

642
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,920
But I think you're going to see
far more.

643
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,880
You know, the wave is coming and
we are investing a lot of

644
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:58,920
talents and time so that we are
100% ready when the day comes.

645
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,080
Just watch out.
The next 6 to 18 months is

646
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,040
things are going to break loose.
It's coming.

647
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,600
Thank you so much to my guest,
Ahmed Tokbinar of Bechdel and

648
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,720
the Bechdel Communication Team
for making this episode happen.

649
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,840
If this episode has showed
anything, it's that nuclear

650
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,000
isn't impossible to build.
It's just demanding.

651
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,760
It requires patience,
preparation, and people who are

652
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,360
willing to do things the hard
way to get them done the right

653
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,280
way.
When we talk about nuclear

654
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,240
power, it's easy to get lost in
reactor designs, policy debates,

655
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:37,080
or long term climate targets.
But this conversation brings it

656
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,040
back to something much simpler.
Because the future of nuclear

657
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,240
doesn't hinge on whether the
technology works.

658
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:47,640
It hinges on whether we can
build it predictably, safely, on

659
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,280
time, and on budget.
If you're looking to follow

660
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,640
Bechtel's builds around the
world, we'll put those links in

661
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,000
the show notes.
If this episode changed how you

662
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,880
think about what it takes to
build nuclear, share it with

663
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,240
someone who still thinks can't
be done.

664
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,320
I'm Danielle Allen, and this is
naked nuclear.

665
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,920
Until next time, stay curious.